Intimacy Matters
Intimacy Matters is a podcast all about love, sex and relationships. Join qualified sex and relationship therapist Nicola Foster and her partner Jason Porthouse as they talk about all aspects of sexuality and relating. Featuring occasional guests who are also experts in the field of intimacy. Whatever your stage in life - whether single or dating or in a long-term partnership; whether a couple or a thruple or a moresome; friends-with-benefits to happily married, and all flavours in-between - you'll find enlightening discussions and plenty of thought-provoking ideas in our fortnightly show.
Intimacy Matters
Anna Sansom - Writing The Erotic
In this episode we welcome erotic author Anna Sansom. We chat to Anna about all things erotic - and how we can get in touch with our own desires through creativity, even when it might feel really challenging. We also discuss her book Desire Lines - part
memoir, part guide to reclaiming our erotic nature.
Anna is a queer cis woman (pronouns: she/her) who is endlessly curious about how we experience and express our unique sexual selves. She started writing erotica over two decades ago, has had a full-length erotic novel published and several short stories in anthologies and online. She has a PhD in occupational therapy and is the co-creator of In Touch with Yourself, a guided journey for women who want to reconnect with their pleasure, sensuality, and sexuality, using creative, playful, and empowering personal practices. She loves drinking tea, swimming in the sea, and talking to her cats.
You can find her at annasansom.com and intouchwithyourself.co.uk, and on Facebook (@AnnaSansomWriter) and Instagram (@Anna_Sansom_Writer).
Anna's Substack is at https://annasansom.substack.com/
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Welcome to intimacy matters. I'm Nicola Foster. I'm a sex and relationship therapist and a self confessed intimacy geek. I work with couples around the challenges of keeping passion alive, and how to deepen
Jason Porthouse:And I'm Jason Porthouse. Nicola's partner. I'm intimacy. also fascinated by what makes fulfilling, nourishing and sexually alive relationships.
Nicola Foster:So whether you're in one or you want one, join us as we talk all things intimacy, and find out how to create healthier, happier, sexier relationships. So here we are back with another episode of intimacy matters. And today we're joined by a guest Anna Sansom. And I'm so super excited to have Anna here. We, I mean, I've wanted to have Anna on the podcast from the beginning of when we started it. And as an erotic writer, and she has a book with the unbound press, a press, light, absolutely love. And I just feel so delighted that Anna is able to join us to talk about a rhotic writing because I feel like there's a lot that we can learn. And I'm sure there's a lot that people who are listening to the podcasts can learn because I'm sure Anna's got loads of tips for us. So Anna, thank you for joining us. I'm so so lovely to see you. Would you like to sort of introduce yourself?
Anna Sansom:Yeah. Well, thank you so much for this invitation. I mean, this is one of my favourite things to talk about. So I'm likely to get quite excited because I feel so passionate about this topic. But yeah, so my name is Anna Sansom. I have been an erotic author for over 25 years. And alongside that, I've also done other work in the field of sexuality and sexual well being. I run courses and events, and I also worked as a sexual surrogate partner for a while. But my main love, like the thing that I would do forever, I hope is writing erotica. And I say erotica, because people often think that means I only write about sex. But of course they don't. Because erotica is so much broader than what we ever might think. Or to define as sex. So yeah, I'm, I'm super excited to be here. So thank you.
Jason Porthouse:It's wonderful. It's wonderful. I mean, an obvious first question that arises to me is that I imagined that when you were doing careers advice at school, erotic writer was not on the agenda.
Anna Sansom:You know, funnily enough, no, the thing, the thing that came up in my careers session was either to become a nurse, or what I did actually go on to become, which was an occupational therapist, which, which I loved because it was a real combination of health and well being plus creativity plus, sort of social stuff around people's well being as well. But I didn't stay in the field of occupational therapy. And writing has been the thing that I've done alongside every other job I've ever had. Like, that's been my consistent thing. So if only they had said that in careers advice.
Jason Porthouse:I suppose yeah. What arises me is how did you get? How did you get started?
Anna Sansom:So I have to confess, I'm going to tell you what I did, which isn't something that I recommend anymore. It with, with sort of what I know now about consent. However, I wanted to seduce someone. And so I wrote them and sent them an erotic story. without their consent, that's where the consent part comes in. I didn't say Would it be okay, if I send you my fantasy, I just wrote them into a story. And this was back in the day when it was paper and pen and stamp and envelope. So they received this, we knew each other. We were we were friends. And they knew that I was sexually interested in them. However, they probably weren't anticipating this thick envelope into their front door. And it was a story. You know, it wasn't a here's what I want to do with you kind of thing. It was a story about two characters. And I was so nervous, understandably, writing and sending this but I really fancied this person and they were nine years older than me, I felt that I was too young. And too, I was in my early 20s, too young, too inexperienced to kind of be on their radar. And so I had to get their attention somehow. And I did. And the happy end of that story is that they will loved it, and wrote me a story in return. And we then went on to write each other's stories back and forth. And it did blossom into a sexual relationship. So that was my very, like selfish reason for starting to write erotica was as I call it, seduction by the pain.
Nicola Foster:And I suppose a question that occurs to me as an adjunct to that is, had you felt that emergent sort of capacity in you, you know, like, in your in school in the stories you wrote back then, yeah,
Anna Sansom:so I'd always written stories like that was I was the little kid in the corner with the books and writing my own stories and all that kind of thing. And I was a teenager in the 1980s. So we didn't, you know, we didn't have access to information to two different books in the same material in the same way that young people could access that nowadays. But we did have feminist bookshops still. And I remember going to the bookshop and like finding these books that had these stories, these, like lesbian love stories, and all of this other kind of like erotica, and romance fiction, and all these kinds of things. And so that was that was the way that I kind of learned about my sexuality and about what was going on in my world as I was slowly developing into it a young sexual person. This was back in the day where we had, I don't remember, like the first lesbian kiss, or national TV was on Brooks, between two men was on EastEnders unite, we remember these things, because it was so significant, because we just didn't have access to material. So books had always been the places that I went to, to try and learn and understand more about what what I was experiencing as I was growing up. And the person who I wrote the story to I kind of knew that, that she'd be into it, because she had given me copies of some quite hardcore erotica books as sort of part of my education. And that's what we did back in the day, you know, we shared books, we said, have you read this one, look, have a look at this story. So I guess it always felt like the most natural way for me to go as a way and I kept a diary. You know, like many teenagers, I kept a diary. So so like writing my thoughts and feelings. And then as they evolved, writing my fantasies and writing my wants and writing my desires, even if that would never have been shared with anybody else, it was a natural thing for me to do was to figure this stuff out for myself, by writing, writing about it.
Jason Porthouse:I'm thinking about my own experience and my own learning. And my curiosity is what's what do you see as a difference between the erotic and maybe what would the be described as the pornographic because I mean, when I was growing up, me, it was sort of my sex education came from sort of finding magazines in the bushes that were sort of, you know, it was Some, somebody's dad would have a kind of copy of penthouse or something. And we'd sort of fall upon these things with with hunger and kind of, like, you know, to glean any information at all that we could, because education was completely lacking and all the rest of it, but, yeah, I'm kind of interested in that sort of where the erotic meets.
Nicola Foster:I was going. Yeah, cuz I had the question earlier, I was really fascinated when you said, of course, erotica, isn't sexuality is not the you know, it's not the same. And I was, I wanted to ask, like, can you tell me tell us more about what erotica means? And I think there's an opener. Yeah, sure.
Anna Sansom:Yeah, absolutely. And I found one of those magazines in the bushes growing up as well. They were there were they? So for me, the difference between erotica, pornography, and just sex and I'm doing air quotes for just X is context. So pornography is is very much in my opinion by lacking context. It's about a sexual act like that. The focus, you don't need to know anything about the motivations of these people, their characters, any other aspects of their lives. I know you we can all think about the cliched stories of all but there's that the plumber at the door. That's a lovely tool belt, the you know, in pornography, you might get that sort of characterization. But I think the difference with erotica is that we're much more invested in the characters. We want to understand What makes them tick? Why this particular act is such a turn on for that particular person, because, of course, the same sexual act, you know, it could be the most mind expanding heart expanding orgasmic experience for one person. And it could be boring for another person, because they've been there seen it done, it doesn't interest them. So. So in erotica, we're, we're, I feel like we're much more interested in the whole person, and how this aspect of their life shows up. And what they choose to do with it, how they choose to enjoy this part of this aspect of themselves. I'm not putting down pornography at all, I think there's absolutely a place for all different ways to access different aspects of this, this sort of genre. Of course, ethical pornography is is a key, pay your performers, all that kind of thing. But I do feel, for me, erotica, is, has more depth. And that's what I need, like that my turn on is the depth of understanding of myself and other people.
Nicola Foster:Yeah, I really feel that answered the question and I'm getting it you know, it's already sort of little ideas are forming as a basis of it. But I'll what I wanted to ask you, like, early on in, in our, in our conversation is I imagine a lot of the people that come to see me, they are feeling really, like they just lost contact with desire, they lost contact with their sexual selves, their optics, and they may buy already, by now be thinking, I don't this doesn't apply to me, how do I even begin to bring myself in to this conversation? And I'm sure with all your wealth of experience, you've heard that many many times. And so I'd love it if you could help all of us kind of bridge that gap like the all that you know about the erotic and the erotic mind and sexuality and sensuality. If you if the if a listener has sort of been listening in for this first 10 minutes, and they're thinking, How do I even begin? This means nothing to me, can you give them a little stepping stone path? To how to open this door? Yeah,
Anna Sansom:and I'd say you know, that I've been in that position as well. I've had times in my life where my my desire has felt like it's on another planet, like how do I get from where I am now to where that part of me is located? I just cannot reach it. And for me, those times have particularly been around. So bereavement post bereavement just could not go there could not access my desire, illness, physical illness. I'm currently going through perimenopause, oh my gosh, does that make it harder to access desire in a consistent way? So I think in my younger years, I kind of got quite, quite relaxed about how easy My desire was to access and then there have been these times in my life when I've just been like, I just where is it? Like, you know, my libido has gone AWOL. I don't even want to like even my, my desire for desire hasn't necessarily been there. And that's one of the things that I that I recognised and I wrote about in my book desire lines, because I realised that actually retaining that desire for desire, I want this I don't necessarily know how I'm going to get it, but I want it. That is the starting point for me. So when it comes to erotica, and for me, my my sexuality and my creativity are a kind of this similar energy. It's like, its passion, its excitement, its joy, its pleasure. And and so when I can't feel my sexual energy and in like such an easy way when I can't access it, for me, when I go back to my creativity, that is my doorway, and I talk about it, but like, if I can't go in the front door of one, I'll go in the back door of the other and I'll end up in the same place. You know, it goes Jack and Jill bathrooms where it doesn't matter which door you go and you arrived in the same place. And that's why I wrote erotica and writing erotica and reading erotica and staying connected to this creative element of my sexuality. Even if I can't physically get myself into that place at that moment in time. I still have a way of keeping this essence of me alive. And that it's like a spark. It's like a tiny little pilot light on a boiler or something. It's like it doesn't have to be a wrote roaring furnace, but I know somewhere I'm feeding and keeping that pilot light of flame. And then when I want to when I, when I'm back in that place where I can access this part of myself, I can turn the fire up, and I can let it roar and I can play with that fire and play with that energy. But the key for me is not letting it go out. And like I say, I've had times in my life where I felt, or I think I think my light has gotten out. And what brought me back was this, this commitment to my desire for desire, I'm gonna get there, and I want this to be a part of my life does matter to me, it is important. And it isn't that it is that important that I will go after it, you know, I'll do what it takes. Because I want to keep this part of me. And it's not the same as it was. And that's to be celebrated. You know, I don't wear the same clothes that I did when I was in my 20s or 30s. Like, we change. And so I do think it's, it's about, like allowing, allowing yourself some grace, that we're not consistent beings. But if we, if it matters to us, there are ways and that's why I think your work is so beautiful, because it gives people another way to access this part of themselves, which, which so many of us are looking for.
Nicola Foster:Thank you, I think you described that beautiful, I use that analogy too. But the pilot light we you know, it's just and then it can go out. But this commitment to come back to, to find a way to light it and and I think your book, I recommend your book regularly to people as a possible doorway, you know, as different doorways into pleasure and into desire. And your book is a doorway. So tell us about the book, tell us about how you came to write it and the process of writing it and more. Thank
Anna Sansom:you. Well, I love I love my book. I still love my book. It's five years on since it was published. And I still love my book, which I think is a really good to say. But I so alongside my fiction, fictional erotic writing, I've I have like journaled and written nonfiction pieces about sex and sexuality and that kind of thing I wrote for diva magazine for a couple of years and wrote their sex life column and that kind of thing. So I've always been really curious. And I think, for me, part of my story is because I grew up as a young queer person, and I didn't see myself represented in the media. It made me even more curious and even more questioning. So if I'm not this, what am I? If I'm not like that, who am I? And so I've always really enjoyed those questions like I've enjoyed exploring, I've enjoyed learning about my sexuality and about other people's sexuality. And I got to my mid 40s, and decided that it was kind of time that I pulled some of pull some of this together. And I wanted to write about some of my life experiences. So it would be a memoir. But I also really wanted to create a space for the reader to ask questions for themselves. So ultimately, although I share my stories, my aim has always been that the reader then finds out more about themselves. But it was a really scary thing to write about stories of my sex life and my gender, exploration and all of those kinds of things, to write about relationships, you know, these things are often kept very private, a lot of it is seen to be quite taboo. And, and I still knew I wanted to write about it. So as you mentioned before, the book was published by the unknown press, and I wrote the book with support from Nicola humbo, who runs the the unbound press, who, whose main thing was about creating this brief space. That's what she called it like a brave space where we could write uncensored, myself and other people who were writing for the publisher. And desire lines, emerged as a sort of collection of my stories of Yes, exploring sexuality, exploring different relationship styles, exploring my gender, exploring my role as a sexual surrogate partner, as somebody who identified as a lesbian who was doing sexual healing work with men. And what did that mean? Exploring my my attraction to the world of kink and BDSM. exploring things around shame, and how that might show up in our lives, and then it kind of culminates with this. So from what I know nor About myself from all these different journeys. What do I know are my fundamental drivers of desire? And this is why the book is called desire lines, because desire lines are like the paths that we take. So what do I now know about these paths that have been consistent throughout my life, even when the outward circumstances might change? And the ultimate one for me is retaining this desire for desire. Like, that's my, my grand design. That's the, the umbrella that everything else sits underneath. As long as I can retain my desire for desire. I'll be okay. So yeah, so desire lines is all of that, plus these questions for the reader to say, okay, so what? What do I, as the reader, what do I know about my gender and home? How my relationship with my gender shows up in my relationships and sexuality? What do I know about who and what I'm attracted to? What do I know about my fantasies? And if there are gaps in that knowledge, let's ask the questions now and find out or explore, or at least be open to learning more to evolve in more. And I talk a lot about in the book about expansion. It's this notion of like, if we shame particularly can make us feel very contracted, you know, withdraw, and everything gets tight. But when we allow ourselves to expand and evolve, what might we open up to?
Jason Porthouse:Yeah. It's and with all of that, that you've said, and the answer that you gave before, because I think there's so much to unpack here in a way that and I suppose I want to get back to this notion of of the erotic being so much more and the connection with because I really agree with you on this one, that connection with the life force, if you like the lifeforce energy, the creativity, that real sort of innate quality that we all have, that I think so many people have lost touch with, because life is so kind of like, difficult, busy, confusing, you know that. And so in a way, for me, it's no wonder that people have lost touch with their desire for desire. Because in many ways, it's like the last thing on anyone's mind. And so I'm really kind of struck with what you said about a, the importance of keeping in touch with desire. And I'm thinking about it from the perspective of a man is that so often, desire for us is to do with the much more mechanical and of sexuality. It's the sort of Yeah, is pornography is sort of, and I think that's because we're slightly in calculated with that. And we, we don't know, as men often how to be in touch with the erotic and the sensual, and the, you know, all of those, the much broader expansive of how we can define sexuality. I'm wondering if you could talk about that a little bit.
Anna Sansom:It's really interesting. So I have had relationships with guys, but predominantly, my relationships have been with people assigned female at birth. And so I can't speak too much to men's sis men's experience of sexuality. But one thing I do know, is that, as a cisgendered woman, is also get off on the mechanical stuff. I also get off on the pornography, pure fantasy. I don't need context. I don't, I don't always need that. But what I talked about earlier, like that depth of, of context of depth of understanding depth of characterization. And so I do think a lot of it is around, potentially around our socialisation. I think that we see desire showing up in other areas of our life, and it's much more acceptable. So for example, if somebody's very career orientated, that's acceptable. If somebody's very determined to have children, that's acceptable. If somebody's very motivated to have adventures in far off lands and do travelling, that's acceptable. So we do see desire, in its broadest frame show up in lots of different areas of our lives. And I think, sometimes if we're not feeling sexual desire, and again, I'm doing air quotes around sexual. I just wonder, like, how do we expand that, you know, how do we say, well, what's underneath that? It's the desire for connection. It's the desire for intimacy. It's the desire for physical touch that feels good It's the desire for feeling ourselves to be a body that experiences pleasure, and not just a mind that has to do work, or that has to pay the bills or, you know, it's about embodying ourselves more. And and so I don't know that we're actually that different in terms of gender. I think we all want and desire very similar things. And it's just how it shows up in our lives. I don't know if that answers your question. But I do. I do think like, there's something around. It would be really interesting. So I, I know for a fact because it's my my lived experience that there are times when I just want an orgasm, and I will grab my vibrator and I will have a very quick, reasonably satisfying, but nothing mind blowing orgasm. It's a purely physical release. That's it. And yet as as women, as people socialised as women in this society, we're not meant to feel that, like we, we know that it's okay for a man to go and have a wank, but not necessarily a woman, and you know, all this kind of stuff. So I, this is where the questions come in. For me, it's like, when we take away all of the stuff that we've been told, we should feel about ourselves and our sexuality, what is our lived experience? What is actually the reality for me? And if that's going to involve other people, make sure it's consensual and all that kind of thing. But oh, you know, there's so much more potential there. There's so much more. And I think, for a lot of people, when, when they think about desire and sex, it's penis and vagina sex. And if you're not in the mood for that, everything else is off the table. And that, you know, so how can how can we expand? How can we expand?
Nicola Foster:How often talking about that, I mean, I remember they said, on my, on my training, right, like, my first day or something on my sex therapy training, the teacher use the metaphor of an ocean for sexuality. And I often come back to that, I think, you know, it's, there's a, there's an ocean, it's vast in the different possibilities of what's included in, in what we could, what we can enjoy sexually. But I think sort of, to come back to your comment, it's, it's like, sometimes we haven't been socialised to, to, to have any kind of vision about the breadth of the possibilities, then what we've been shown is kind of penis and vagina sex. And, you know, I often think about, I often use the analogy, I say that you know, what a lot of us would, you know, we will also teenagers in the 80s. And they were, I watched a lot of 80s, watch a lot of Hollywood movies in the 80s. And I remember American Hollywood movies, and they would often also often talk about first base, second base, third base, I don't think I really knew quite what that was. But I knew there was a, I knew there was a first base and a second base and third base. And that if you got to third base, it was better than first base. And I still don't think I really kind of know what that means. But there was always this inherent hierarchy of the escalator. Yeah, this is better than this. Everything I've learned on my sexual, I've been on a big sexual journey of learning about myself over over, you know, in my 40s, really, and a lot of what I learned on that journey, was the, there was a lot more possibility for pleasure with a lot less happening. And that's what I'm often trying to kind of encourage my client and then the clients and the listener to, to, like you say, to have questions around to get curious around is, you know, for some people, that I loved it when you said earlier about like the most mind blowing, pleasure may be something that for somebody else is very run of the mill. And I do think that for some people, you know, to be held and stroked for a long period of time, maybe the most extraordinary experience they've ever known in their bodies. But they have never asked for it wouldn't know to ask for it because the socialisation has been. Well, first it's the breasts and then it's the genitals and then it's the orgasm and boom, that's the end. It's like so it's such a limited picture, isn't it? Yeah. And if you've got any kind of illness
Jason Porthouse:It's no wonder then that if your desire level is sort of down here somewhere and you think that you've got to get it to that point on the escalator. That's a huge leap, isn't it? or pain or you mentioned Peri menopause and perimenopause, and I wanted to ask, yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that you've already spoken about it. I'm also you know, two years postman, my menopause, and my desire is very different. And you know, vaginal dryness. This is an issue for a lot of people. And you know that kind of just having a quickie out and about in the woods or something, it's just not something, you know, maybe lovely thing to do in your 20s when you're feeling very liberal, easily lubricated, just may not be possible anymore. So the whole landscape changes,
Nicola Foster:everything changes I would love to ask you a question about coming back to this idea of getting started, like if somebody's feeling disconnected from desire, and they want to get started, because I think you teach people in how to start with creative writing and erotic writing. And if somebody's listening and thinking, this sounds like something I'd like to start with, but I have no idea how to start. I mean, obviously, they could buy desire lines, but tease them into that, like, you know, what, what would be an X first exercise someone could do in their erotic writing journey.
Anna Sansom:So one of the other things that I love about erotic writing is that it gives us an opportunity to experience our body. And you know, this thing about when athletes are preparing for a race, and they mentally rehearse the race, so their body knows what's going to happen? Well, studies have shown that like, the brain can't tell the difference between whether that race has actually been run physically, or whether it's just been a run through in the mind's eye. So one of the things I love about erotic writing, is that it gives you a body this opportunity to, to experience something without necessarily having to physically put yourself in that position. And our bodies still benefit from it, like our emotions still benefit from it, or that kind of thing. So I actually think one of the first steps is about becoming connected to your body. And as I say that, I automatically put my hand over my heart, because that for me is like, okay, so I touch my body, intentionally my hand over my heart, I take some conscious breaths. For me, there's also something about like, feeling my feet on the ground, and just sort of like feeling my connection as well. And then it's from that place that I can begin to feel into what are my wants and desires. And that can be a massive leap for people. You know, it's one of the hardest things somebody says, Tell me what you want, and you just freeze. It's like, I don't know, I don't know what I want. I don't have the language for what I don't have the words. And so one of the first things I say around if you're interested in writing erotica, is make a commitment to write for yourself. Don't think that you're having to write for anyone else, you're not writing for a lover, you're not writing for an audience. Nobody else is ever going to see this. This is your space to write down and share with yourself. What is most important to you in this moment? So when somebody does that, and they put their hand over their heart, and they take some breaths, and they feel into their body, and they say, What do I want? It might be, I want to be held, I want to have my hair stroked. I actually don't want any physical touch at the moment. You know, maybe it's something else they want. I just want some peace and quiet. Many things that people might say, actually, this is what I want in the moment. And then and then we connect him with with more deeper with our body. So kind of like sinking into that place. Okay, so if I could have anything I wanted. If I could have whatever would bring me pleasure, in this moment. It's a fantasy, the sky's the limit. You can have one person, a dozen people, you know, all the sex toys you want whatever it might be to experience this pleasure for yourself, what what might that look like? And then when you take away that pressure of there ever being an audience, you get into this place of where there's no censorship, I can ask for this, I can ask for this. And you're, you're putting it down on the paper. And if that feels too difficult, you can have a character ask for the thing. You don't even have to own it for yourself. You don't have to say I won't. But actually one of the early exercise one of the early writing exercises I do with people is to simply fill in the blank I want and you can do that as you go throughout your day. It doesn't have to be anything that people might think of as sexual, but it could be I want a hot cup of tea. I want five minutes of peace and quiet. And just to get used to with this, this phrase because again, particularly from Many of us we've we've been told it's wrong to say I want, we're not allowed to say I want certainly growing up I, I was told you want never gets, you cannot say I want you can say please may I have, and you're putting, you're putting the onus on the other person to grant you your permission to have this thing you want. But we were never allowed to say I want, you know that that was not like a kid throwing a tantrum saying I want. But actually, as adults, we are allowed to own our wants. And again, I think, you know, writing isn't everybody's cup of tea, I know that, you know, for me, it's always been the go to place, but other people might find it through movement, or music, or art, or conversations with our best friend or whatever it might be. But just like finding this space, where we can begin to connect into what it is we want and need. Because of course, once or nice to have needs a non negotiable. Like if you need that thing, you need that thing. So to be able to connect into those and begin to put language to them, because if we don't have the language, how can we ever ask, Hey, can we ever put out there? Yeah.
Nicola Foster:I reminded that I did. I can't even remember how it came to be when I'm sure I did an online writing workshop with you. It might have been during lockdown. It was when we lived in our old house. And I remember that I think there were some sort of themes as prompts. And that really helped me. I think there may have been something around food and food is very much as you know, it's a very sensual doorway for me, you know, I definitely feel a lot of sensuality when it comes to things like thinks or honey are not that I like to include them in my sexual play, but they have an erotic realm for me. And there's something about beginning with that. And then saying, Well, is there any, if I were to feel sexual, not saying I need to, but if I were to feel sexual, and it would to include figs and honey, where might my desire line emerge? When I think about figs and honey, and there's something for me there of like there is a doorway because it's like I don't it's like it's somehow a to b like if a is filling nonsexual and B is rhotic writings quite hard to get into. But somehow the the little prompter gives me a stepping stone. So
Jason Porthouse:it's like you were saying earlier about that sort of coming in whichever door you need to come into to get to the same space. Yeah,
Anna Sansom:and I think that I think that when you're talking about Nicola that was in that online workshop was about eating a peach. It's about can you describe the experience of eating a perfectly ripe juicy peach. So everything from the texture to the scent to the juices that might dribble down your chin or licking your fingers at the you know, so all of really like engaging the senses and, and part of that is just reminding yourself that you are a sensual being that your body has this capacity to, to experience pleasure through taste, touch scent. You know, Sight Sound all of those things. So yeah, I love that one. But fix that honey.
Nicola Foster:Yeah, it's like an extrapolation, isn't it? That's the word like you get sought to replace your sort of with the pitch and how it feels. And then you can sort of if you choose to or your mind is able to take that leap and goes extrapolates out and can go into some kind of well, what if there was like, say, 123 people here? And there was a page? And I had some kind of desire? What might it be? Yeah, who knows? That might happen? Yeah,
Anna Sansom:I think those prompts are really helpful. And I think I use writing prompts a lot. I love writing prompts, because because what we know about desire is, you know, the whole spontaneous and responsive desire, like we need, many of us much of the time need something to respond to. It's not just there from the get go. And so whether it's creative writing, or exploring and expressing your sexuality when we have these prompts it Yeah, it's doorways plus keys, plus signs on the doors. Just because there's so much more choice. Yeah,
Nicola Foster:absolutely. Yeah. Thank you for joining the dots there with the spontaneous and responsive. It's true. For me, I think it's always been responsive. There's just a lot of responsive and prompts. Really, really help. Yeah, yeah.
Jason Porthouse:And I think what you're saying about that, that sort of remembering that we are bodies that we are sensual beings that we have those senses, then they can give us pleasure because, again, it's for so many of us, myself, I I include myself in this, and it's been an ongoing journey to kind of get out of that living in a head. You know, and we see that, don't we, in terms of kind of people getting their entire sensory input from this, you know, in virtual worlds or in in kind of online worlds, or, you know, they have often said to, you know, it's certainly some of the work I do, when I'm editing videos and things like that I, I forget, I've got a body, you know, and over a period of time, I think a lot of people in society do that. So yeah, doing something that reconnects to those sort of really simple pleasures and those kinds of very,
Anna Sansom:yeah. And I think you know, and then that comes down to noticing them. It's like the mindfulness aspect, it's like, it may be a really simple pleasure, and it may be quite short, lift. But when we notice it, when we give it our attention, it really like builds those foundations, then that we can build more and more pleasure on top of, but I know myself, I do a lot of work at a desk, and I'll make myself a lovely cup of tea, and I'll have drunk it without realising it. Because I'm so engrossed in my work. And you know, just things like that, what would have happened, if I said to myself, Okay, I can still keep working. But every time I pick the cup up, I'm just going to stop, I'm going to notice, I'm going to enjoy, I'm going to gift myself this experience of pleasure. And then it might stand up and have a bit of a stretch or wiggle, like remind myself, I've got a body, we just, you know, when we when we have all of these things in place, as well, like as a we can build up. But if we can't even manage those, then yes, that distance between not feeling it, but wanting it, maybe, possibly, somewhat. How do we bridge that? Yeah,
Jason Porthouse:I think that's often the thing, isn't it? I think if it feels such a great leap to sorry, I'm just putting my face right in my hand right in front, even if it feels such a great leap to get from that place to that place. I think a lot of people just go, You know what, I can't be bothered. You know, it's better. It's better not to want in order to not be disappointed. Oh,
Anna Sansom:yes. Yes. And that's such a key one, isn't it this, but if I identify what I want, and if I ask if I'm brave enough to ask for what I want, and I don't get what I want, then that's rejection and devastation and for us, and I hear that quite a lot from people. I can't ask for what I want. Because, or I can't, I can't even recognise what I want. I can't even admit to myself what I want, because and I just keep coming back to if we don't even acknowledge it for ourselves, we will never have it, we will never even have the potential like unless we're willing to take that first step and recognise for ourselves what's important. And then what's the next step? What's the next step, but it is very much stepping stones, like you say, if we, if we try and leak this great ravine, the chances of making it to the other side are less than if we build a bridge, or we have stepping stones or whatever it might be.
Nicola Foster:I love there was something that you said in the book where you were told you gave some examples of things that you wouldn't have been brave to ask for. And there was some reference I think to it doesn't mean that you're going to get this thing because you've asked for it or because you've named the desire for it. And I think that's now there can be in we've both done a lot of work with Jan De but and I, all the things I remember that she talked about early on was there can be an exquisiteness of being in our longing in our desire, knowing you know, maybe there is a very beautiful human who lives close to you and you're not going to have a sexual relationship with them probably but you might exquisitely enjoy the longing. And that may be a great pleasure in and of itself without I mean, I actually enjoy longing for holidays in Bali. I don't know if I'm gonna get one but I quite enjoy them long. You know, looking at that exquisite I Aveda practice with the oil dropping on the head. My longing is delicious. And whether I actually ever experienced it. I don't know. Yeah.
Anna Sansom:And of course then, then we can ask so what's what's the essence of that longing, whatever it may be. So is it to have that experience where you're warm and comfortable and you're in a beautiful landscape and somebody is administering to you and bringing pleasure to your body and the the entire focus is just on experiencing there's more oils on your body. It, you know, what, what is that about? And does it have to be in Valley? Does it have to be with that parent, you know, but we can we can begin. And I'm also I talk a lot about masturbation because I'm a huge advocate of meeting our own sexual needs and wants and desires as well. I love the work of Betty Dodson. And the way that she said, you know, masturbation is the love affair that lasts a lifetime, we will always be our own best lover. So you'd like to gift that to ourselves as well. So yes, longing and meeting our own needs and expanding, expanding.
Jason Porthouse:And there's something beautiful, I think Yeah. about that, kind of, if we think about being in relationship, the, the ability to name desire, even if it's not fulfilled,
Nicola Foster:it's not shared by the other person.
Jason Porthouse:Yeah. Or even if it's sort of if even if it's like not, right now, if I say to you, I'd love to receive something. And you're kind of like, I think I think there's something really powerful about being able to name it and not having it be taboo, or shaming or something like that, that you know, that it does two things. For me, it kind of takes away some of the taboo and the, the shame aspect around it. And the fact that I've been kind of able to speak it to record be recognised, and to be okay, in my longing and desire not to be made wrong for it is really powerful.
Nicola Foster:It can be very healing, can't it? You mentioned the shame word earlier. And I you know, there's so many of us who sort of have swum in the soups of shame in our childhoods and teenage years. And I know, for you, Jason, it's been a big journey of like, being able to be seen and honoured and loved as a sexual man is, you know, it goes some way to heal some of that shame that was around. Yeah.
Jason Porthouse:And I'm what I like about this idea of, of making the erotic part of the every day in a way is that it doesn't, it doesn't have to be done. It doesn't have to be the action. It can be the thought the writing the the naming of it. The speaking of it. Yeah,
Anna Sansom:absolutely.
Jason Porthouse:That's powerful. Yeah.
Nicola Foster:Yeah. I mean, one of the things I've when it's come up in my work sometimes has been when people are they have a desire for something that there's there is no agreement for in their in their relationship. And I've ventured the possibility that they may explore it on the written page, you know, maybe they, maybe the, the, you know, it isn't something that they're in their own decision making. They don't actually want to do but like you said earlier, they can get you can we get to do these things. In our minds, I am thinking now that I'm about to go off and write my own novella about Bali, because maybe this might be a little project for the summer. And actually, that's, that's a little segue, saying, I might go and write a novella. You wrote desire lines five years ago, what's your What are you working on there?
Anna Sansom:Well, one of the things that I really like to thank my past self for as my current self, is that desire lines feels to me like it's a time capsule of where I was, and what led me to that point. But that is five years ago, and I have been in perimenopause for at least the intervening five years. So my current real zone of interest is around what what I'm calling imperfect intimacy, the messy, messy middles of sexuality and relationship, and how we experienced that. So I'm currently compiling an anthology of 15 extraordinary writers, who are each sharing their personal story about their own sex life through a time of significant change. So that could be after bereavement, it could be questioning or transitioning gender, it could be when a relationship changes, and all kinds of other things. Menopause is definitely in there. Ageing, have got stories from people in their 30s through to their 70s all talking about what was like the real experiences of being a sexual person, in a real body in this world at this time, when it's messy and imperfect, and yet it's still exquisite. It can still be extraordinary in have meaning to the individual. And so this book is called Sex meets life. And I'm hoping it will be out either later this year or early next year. And as I say, I'm just blown away by the stories that these authors have shared with me. And people from all walks of life, who have just been really vulnerable, but also open and honest about what it's like to be a sexual adult, when we know that life isn't perfect, and how can we still retain our desire for desire, even when it's not on the table at this time when that pilot light has gone out, or when somebody else's light has come to merge with ours, or whatever it might be. So that is super exciting. For me. I'm also still writing short stories. So I've got a couple of short stories coming out this year, including one in best women's erotica, volume 10. I've been trying for years to get a story in this anthology. Every year, they open up submissions, they submit a story, I get a rejection letter, and this year, I finally got an acceptance. So I'm like, Oh, this could be the highlight of my career. And then I'm offering courses and programmes for primarily for women and non binary folk who want to explore things that we've been talking about today. So writing erotica, but also building our foundations of pleasure. That's what the course is cold foundations of pleasure. So that through through mindfulness and creative practices, so we can evolve and retain, like this aspect of our sexual self in the way that matters to us. So it's all all of my work is about, like, the individual rather than the stereotypes.
Jason Porthouse:Yeah. Yeah. Because the stereotypes were often sold or sort of seemed to be so far away, sometimes from anyone's lived reality.
Anna Sansom:Absolutely. I call it the difference between accessible and aspirational. So we're given so much aspirational content. But what I want to do is make that accessible for people. So they can actually see them see themselves. They do know what their stepping stones look like, what their bridge looks like, what their version of ballet looks like, not what somebody else's version looks like. And then I'm also writing on substack. So I started this last year, which is like a blogging platform for writers. And I'm calling it a living experiment of desire, queer desire in midlife, because I'm quite fascinated by myself, I'll admit that. And this this into this intervening period of perimenopause, like what is going on with my libido? What is going on with my desire? What know feels good for me sexually that didn't before and vice versa. So I'm sharing that that journey, plus some erotica on my substack platform. Again, it's sort of like a current time. So where's desire? Like this was from sort of my 20s? Through to mid 40s? This is so what's happening now? 50? What's happening now?
Nicola Foster:Oh, we'll definitely put a link to the substack in the show notes. And think that book just sounds brilliant. Because there are there is absolutely not enough stories and case studies and examples of like you say real, and that's why I called my stuff real relating, because it's like, let's try and get real about what actually happens because it's aspirational. There are so many people are feeling disappointed, because they feel like they're not living up to some aspiration that actually is. Yeah, sounds like anyone is Yeah, yeah.
Jason Porthouse:And it could be that what works for you is actually very, very simple and what might be considered playing and doing the inverted commas again? aspirationally you know, if you're, if you're reading kind of articles on, you know, how to have
Nicola Foster:great sex, you know, the cosmopolitan articles that we read in the 80s that had like, 87 positions, hotels at seven opposite. I still laugh about it now. I mean, I remember talking laughing about it, like, on love Island, or I don't I have watched a few episodes in the past, but I'm love Island, they have this thing where they ask them their favourite position, and they say these things. And you've never under 16 servers with a six service for six years and they say things. I've never heard of it. And you look it up and it's like, she's standing on her head and their legs. Really do that, or did you just say it because it was gonna get us link anyway. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Maybe there are plenty of people doing these very exotic positions and I I've got some stuff to learn and we're always learning you know, we're always learning But
Jason Porthouse:I think that, you know, on a serious note, it is that thing of it's, it's what works for you, whatever that might be. And and what I take from all that we've talked about is that finding out what that is getting really curious about your, you know, you said, you're really fascinated about you. And I think that all of us need to be a bit fascinated about ourselves to really kind of, to really question what it is that we want and to sort of start that inquiry within us around what are my desires? I know, for me, when I was first asked, you know, in that context, what do I want? No idea. I can't, you know, I've done that. Exercise, you spoke about the writing exercise the I want. And I've just sat there with a blank page for five minutes going, I've, you know, can I even ask for this? Can I even, you know, even before I've got to the kind of not knowing what it is I want, I've got this leap to get over into? Yeah, you know, is it okay, I can actually have wants, needs, desires, you know, all of these things and be aware of them. So, yeah, I
Anna Sansom:think that's where reading erotica can be really helpful as well. Because if you read a story, you're gonna get a visceral a body reaction. Is this something that is of interest to me or not? And knowing what's not is just as helpful as knowing what it is, you know, so I, you know, I know what I don't want, and then I know what I do want and, and so I really enjoy reading other people's erotica, because again, it gives me this opportunity to expand my perspective, my outlook, what are the elements of that story that turned me on? Or got me curious? Or piqued my you know, got my attention? And then what how does that relate to me and my lived experience to get you for latika?
Nicola Foster:Yes, everyone gonna read some erotica. And I'll try and put some links into some good erotica in substack, as well. Exactly, exactly. i That's why I usually signpost people to you're interested in erotic, the erotic world of erotic writing, go and check out this fabulous human Anna, who has got so much 25 years of experience of writing about it. So thank you so much for sharing with us. As I know, we can see we're both on the edge of our seats. It's been so interesting, and enjoyable. So really, really grateful to you. Thank you. It's
Anna Sansom:been really it's it has been my pleasure, and yay for pleasure. So thank you both so much.
Jason Porthouse:Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you want to contact us with comments or suggestions for topics you'd like us to cover, there are links in the notes below.
Nicola Foster:If you're ready to take the next step to rediscovering the passion in your relationship, why not check out my online course called reigniting intimacy is packed full of information and practical exercises that you can do at home. I put everything together in a step by step programme, and it's designed to take you both into deeper connection. You can find out more at real relating.com