Intimacy Matters

GUEST INTERVIEW with Betty Martin - The Art Of Receiving And Giving

• Real Relating with Nicola Foster • Season 2 • Episode 9

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Intimacy Matters - Featuring Betty Martin

To celebrate International Podcast Day we are thrilled to release this exciting episode of Intimacy Matters. Nicola Foster and Jason Porthouse sit down with the wonderful human Betty Martin, creator of the Wheel of Consent and author of The Art of Receiving and Giving. Together, they dive into how understanding consent can transform (yes, really!) your relationships and intimacy.

Key Highlights:

  • The Wheel of Consent: Betty shares how her groundbreaking model helps people understand the difference between giving, receiving, and taking in relationships, sparking deeper connection and passion.
  • The Power of Asking for What You Want: Explore the vulnerability, empowerment, and thrill of clearly asking for your desires—and how this simple practice can transform intimate relationships.
  • Overcoming Blocks Around Receiving and Taking: Why so many people struggle with receiving touch for their own pleasure and how the Wheel helps unlock freedom and joy in giving and taking.
  • Domain - what is it and why does it matter?
  • For Couples Stuck in a Rut: Nicola explains how she uses the Wheel of Consent in her work with long-term couples to break out of routines and reignite their intimacy.

Resources:

  • Betty Martin’s Book: The Art of Receiving and Giving – Discover how the Wheel of Consent can reshape your approach to intimacy.
  • Free Resources: Check out Betty’s website for loads of valuable content to explore the Wheel further.
  • Reignite Your Intimacy: Dive into Nicola’s online course, Reigniting Intimacy, packed with exercises to deepen connection and rediscover passion.

Listen & Subscribe:

Don’t miss this exciting and insightful episode! Follow Intimacy Matters on your usual podcast platform and visit RealRelating.com for more intimacy-boosting content.












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Nicola Foster:

Music. Welcome to intimacy matters. I'm Nicola foster I'm a sex and relationship therapist and a self confessed intimacy geek. I work with couples around the challenges of keeping passion alive and how to deepen intimacy.

Jason Porthouse:

And I'm Jason porthouse, Nicola's partner, I'm also fascinated by what makes for fulfilling, nourishing and sexually alive relationships.

Nicola Foster:

So whether you're in one or you want one, join us as we talk all things intimacy and find out how to create healthier, happier, sexier relationships. You so here we are back with intimacy matters, and I am super duper excited that today we have Betty Martin with us, the the author of the wonderful book The Art of receiving and giving, and the founder and creator of the wheel of consent, which, if you listen to this podcast regularly, you will have frequently heard me, yeah, talking about receiving or giving. So it is an absolute thrill to actually talk to the person who created it, and it was so inspired me. I'm on the facilitator track of become of teaching the wheel, because I absolutely love it. So welcome Betty, and let's get cracking, because there's so much,

Unknown:

yeah, cracking.

Nicola Foster:

So tell us. Tell us about the wheel, about how it came to be, about your story with it like you know, never heard of it, so, yeah, how would you introduce it in a you're in a well,

Unknown:

let's see. How long do we have? Three days here.

Jason Porthouse:

An easy question.

Unknown:

Well, how it came about? It's kind of a funny story. I in my mid 40s, which was 30 years ago. I took some workshops in sexuality with the Body Electric school, and I did several over several years, and really dove in there as a path for me, and at one of those workshops on what's called power, surrender and intimacy, which was about using the tools of BDSM for self awareness. And it was really wonderful workshop. And in it, we played a game called the three minute game. And that consists of two people, and you take turns asking each other these two questions, what do you want me to do to you for three minutes? And what do you want to do to me for three minutes. Well, that, as you can imagine, that creates a lot of fun and creates some different dynamics. Because, wait a minute, what do I want to do to you? Well, I want to do blah, blah, blah, and and then you're asking me to do something different to you, blah, blah, blah, and so you're taking turns, and what you notice, pretty quickly, if you play this game, is that there's four rounds, either I'm doing what you want or I'm doing what I want, and there's a difference, or you're doing what you want, or you're doing what I want, and there's quite a difference in those as well. So at at so I was really excited. Just kept playing this game with whoever would play with me, different friends. And I was working as a sex coach at that time, somatic a sex coach, and so I brought it into work with my clients, because I thought, Oh, this will be a good way to transition from the history taking talking part of the session into the Touch part of the session, because it'll give me a feeling of how comfortable they are with touch. And it did, and it showed me so much more than I ever imagined it would. So at that time, I was using the original version of the game, which is, what do you want to do to me for three minutes? And what do you want me to do to you for three minutes? And it it was turned out to be too broad of a question for my practice, so I narrowed it down to, how do you want me to touch you for three minutes? Yes, and how do you want to touch me for three minutes? So you notice both of those questions are asking what you want, but because we're taking turns, we both get a turn. So I started using it to to transition into the touching part of the session to get a sense of like, okay, what's people's comfort level, what's their skill level? How are they going to relate to touching and being touched and and and then, like I said, it showed me so much more. And I just became completely fascinated with it, obsessed with it, really and and one of the things that I noticed right off was that when I would ask people, How do you want me to touch you? Many people, most people, would say, I have no idea, because I'm always the one doing the touching, or I don't know what I want, or, Oh, you can do whatever you want, which is very nice, but it's not the it's not the question, yeah. Or they would say, Well, you could rub my shoulders, I guess, again, nice, but that's not the question. The question is, what is it that you actually want that sounds wonderful to you? Yeah. And then they'd go, oh, like they had just heard the question. And and then sometimes we'd get started, and they would, they would not realize that it was okay to change their mind, or they would not realize was okay to say no, or it just showed me how, how much we people go along with what we think the other person wants, or What we're supposed to do, or something like almost nobody could say, oh, this is what I want. Will you do this? Almost nobody. And so that showed me that we're onto something here. Yeah, something's going on here, yeah. And and then oftentimes, when it would click and they would be touched the way they want, they would be, then different feelings would come up. They'd be like, Oh my gosh, I didn't know I deserve this. Or, oh my gosh, this feels so good. I didn't know it was okay to have this. Or I feel guilty. Or are you sure you're okay? You don't mind doing this, and the the the quality of the feelings that arose is what told me that we're onto something here, like something, something deep is going on inside this person. And so that just kept me coming back to it and coming back to it, and then the second question, how do you want to touch me? That was a that was really amazing, because you're asking someone how they want to touch you. Well, no one ever asks you that, so it's kind of disorienting. Like, wait a minute, what you know? And they'd say, Well, you know, I'll do whatever you want. Well, that's very nice, but it's not the question. Or, well, would you like such and such I might, but that's not the question. Or they'd say, Well, I don't know what I want, because I've never been asked that. Well, that's true, but it's a really simple question, how do you want to touch me? And and almost everybody with that one would get it confused with giving like, how do you want to touch me? Oh, well, I'd be willing to do such and such, great. That's not the question. So and then they would start, you know, trying to touch in some way. And they would immediately revert into, oh, it's for you. It's forgiving. It's for, you know, because our whole context of the right kind of touch is that it's for the benefit of the person who's being touched. And that's true in many cases, but not every case. So it's possible to touch someone for your own enjoyment. That's not about producing pleasure in them. It's just because it feels good to your hands. And that turned out to be a mind blower for everybody, just about everybody. So again. And it just kept drawing me in, because, oh my gosh, here's all this stuff. And oh my gosh, look what we're look what the ahas that are coming out of it. And again, the tears of gratitude and the tears of relief, and, oh my God, I didn't know this was possible. Um, so, so then at some point, because I just sort of tend to think visually. I just drew the the quadrants because it's a, it's a, it shows that who is doing overlaps with who it's for. So that you can be it's, it's either for you or for me, and I'm doing or you're doing in those, those combined in four ways. That's the mathematics of it. So, so, yeah, then, then the drawing came about, and then I started telling people about, oh, like, isn't this exciting, and Isn't this cool? They say, Yeah, eyes would kind of glaze over, you know. And gradually, over the years, I learned that it was actually useful for people, and still sometimes surprises me, like people get excited about it, you know, like you are great.

Nicola Foster:

I mean, listening to you Betty, I so relate to the bringing it into the you know, working with people directly. I'm a cup. You know, people don't know who I am. I'm I do a lot of couples therapy, so I work a lot with people who have been together in long term relationships. And then I discovered the wheel, and I thought, you this is super interesting to the way I work with people. And initially I made the mistake of kind of giving people the three minute game to go away and play on the ground and then to come back and tell me about it. And I just don't do that anymore, because what I've I thought that I want you know they needed to get really good value out of me when when we were together, and we should do the therapy, and they should go and do the touch at home, but I've, I've stopped doing that because I do the touch in the session. Even though I'm working online. I introduce parts. I don't introduce the wheel. I've learned that mistake. I just say, I just introduced a question about touch, an invitation around touch, and set it up with the getting comfortable it's for, and then doing it. And I discover, like you say, I discover so much in those interactions, exactly as you've just been describing, that it blows people's minds that they could stop or, you know, so many people say I must be the odd one because I don't know what I want, and helping people to realize most of us don't know what we want, because most of us have not had the chance for it to be for us, or we've endured what we've been given. I mean, so many couples in long term relationships. I mean, I think of it sometimes with couples that they just, they're both very busy doing some giving at the same time, right? And it's just like a lot of stuff's happening. No one knows who it's for. Yeah, no one's going to ever speak, right? Yeah, you know. So they just, and then, and sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't work. There's a lot of unpicking and unpacking to do to try to figure out, oh, I mean, one of my own direct experiences, you know, we both did a wheel workshop with Rupert quite a number of years ago. One of my first was that I often wanted a lot less than I was being offered. What? What, you know, what? Sometimes I just wanted spaces. I wanted pauses. Work with my clients, I find that that's true for a lot of people. It's something, oh yeah, too much going on, yeah. And actually being able to sort of say, actually, I don't want anything right? Can I just feel what it's like to be in the space before anything happens, and then to invite it to happen when I'm when I'm ready? Yeah?

Unknown:

Yeah, yeah. That's huge, huge. So

Nicola Foster:

I, you know, I, I'd love to know, you know, you sounds like you have couples come to some of your workshops, like, what would you say to couples who are new to the wheel about what it can offer them?

Unknown:

Well, like you, I noticed that if I gave it his homework and they took it home, it didn't work very well. And I and when I so. So now what I do, I don't actually see clients anymore, but what I was doing was sit in front of me and play it, and we'll see what happens, because I will see things that they don't see just because of habit. That's nothing wrong with people just because of habit. Yeah. So for example, one would say, how do you want me to touch you? And the other would say, Oh, you could rub my shoulders, I guess. And then the first one would say, Okay. And then they would go, but what they didn't notice was that that doesn't answer the question, but they didn't notice it, because that's just what they're used to talking so that's an example of the kind of thing that if they're in front of you, either on the screen or in the room, you can see it, and you can say, oh, wait a minute. What just happened there? What did you notice? And so that means that they actually can experience it, but can't they can actually get the experience that is available for them there, instead of just sort of bouncing off. So yeah, I totally get what you're saying. And yeah, I found the same thing. I not sure. I try to explain what the wheel can give you, I think it depends. And when I say the wheel, I mean basically playing the three minute game. And you know, you can draw it out, but you don't actually have to draw it out. You can just ask the two questions. I think it depends on what's going on for them. It's obviously a practice in noticing what you want and asking for it. And that is huge for most people. It's just huge, yeah, and it's also a practice in noticing that you can say no or you can set a limit. Yes, you can feel my leg up to here. Yes, you can play with my hair, but don't pull it. Yes, you can squeeze. You can feel my arm, but don't pinch it, or don't squeeze it. You know it will show you that there's a lot of ways to play with each other that don't involve sticking anything in anywhere, that there's just there's an endless ways to play with bodies, endless that may or may not be sexy and and a lot of ways to play with with that are sexy that don't necessarily involve genitals at all. So it's going to increase your repertoire without question. Yeah. I love Yeah, yeah.

Nicola Foster:

That's such an important part. Because I think people come because they're Yeah, they're a bit bored. They've got stuck in ruts, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Porthouse:

I mean, one of the things that struck me when I did this workshop, because that was my first introduction to it was two day workshop with Rupert, and I had this moment of, kind of, I suppose it was a light bulb moment really, that kind of really landed in me about how this relatively simple diagram, although it's incredibly deep, I think, kind of suddenly made explicit the things that were going on unconsciously in my behavior, yeah, yeah. And, and not just into in the realm of sexuality, but just in terms of interactions in life generally, yeah, yeah. And that was really powerful for me, and I'm, I'm guessing that's part of what drew you into the kind of discovery of it, realizing that there's this sort of depth to it. Yes, yeah,

Unknown:

yeah, yeah. You, you it. I described to people that it's best, it's most effectively used as a practice, which means that a practice like yoga or something else, you you create a time and space you're going to go in, you're going to play and you play with it, and you you abide by the rules and the parameters. You're very strict. When it's your turn, it is your turn, and I'm not trying to get something back. When it's my turn, it is my turn, and it's all about me, and I'm going to be selfish, and you're going to take care of yourself, and that's not the way you want to live your whole life. I sure don't like you know, there are many, probably most of the hours of our lives. We're not doing this strictly give and strictly take, but when you can create a practice where you dive into it, you're taking. Them apart, so that you're either totally giving or you're totally receiving and you're not mixing them together. And that's, that's the power of it, I think. Because unless you can take receiving and giving apart, you don't know what they are. You can't because they're they're polluted with each other. If I'm receiving a gift from you and I'm trying to give something back at the same time, I can't actually feel the vulnerability and the gratitude of the gift that you're giving me, or that's that arises from receiving that gift, and when you really take time to receive a gift, cracks your heart open, yeah? And if you don't want your heart cracked open, just don't receive any gifts. That's easy. Just, just give, give, give, give, give, give. Yeah, the I mean,

Nicola Foster:

I wanted to talk about that. This the vulnerability of receiving. I think it's such a common, sort of endemic thing. And I love that you've called the book The Art of receiving and giving, like we tend to it just slips off the tongue to say giving and receiving. We just say it that way, don't we? And yeah, every time I almost say it wrong, because it's not the isn't the book, is the art of receiving and giving? Because, yeah, I imagine you chose that was, tell us, yes,

Unknown:

yes. That's very deliberate, yeah, um, because I've noticed that very often when we when we say things we we have some idea, of course, about what it means and when I when most people hear the words giving and receiving, the picture that comes into their mind is not about the exchange of gifts. It's about who's doing giving means doing to most people, and receiving means being done to so if you say giving and receiving, your mind's going to go to doing and done to but that's not what they are after you. When you play this game a couple times, you'll notice that in that one question where I'm asking how you want to touch me, and you're saying, Look, may I play with your hair, feel your arms or something? And I say, yes, you're the one who's doing but you're not giving me a gift. I'm giving you a gift. I'm giving you the gift of access to me, to my body. I'm giving you my body, so to speak. So wait a minute, you're doing, but you're not giving, you're receiving. So you kind of, you know it, it shows you that doing, who's doing, is a different question than who's receiving the gift or who it's for. And so that took some brain scrambling, um, and it, it. It taught me that, oh, wait a minute, receiving and giving is not what I thought it was like. If it's not doing and done to then what is it? And I, I, I've come to see it as that's the who it's for. Question when you ask for something and I say, Yes, I'm taking what I prefer, put it on the shelf temporarily, and I go with what you want, to the extent that I'm able and willing to do so and and that's giving a gift to you. It may be the gift of what I'm doing to you, or it may be the gift of what I'm allowing you to do to me for your enjoyment, but either way, there's a gift happening there. And so that's how the who is doing question disentangled from the who it's for question. And I think that's actually what that that's the that's the contribution that the wheel of consent makes to the consent conversation in general. Because you already know consent is a good thing, but he what you don't know is that it's not the same, that who is doing is not the same as who it's for and and that's, that's where so many of the ahas, yeah, come in. I see the wheels turning in your head.

Jason Porthouse:

I think that was something that also I found really powerful. Was this notion it what dropped in me, I think, was how often in the past I had. I had offered or given or done as a way of trying to get things reciprocated. Sure, yeah, so it's, it's actually, you know, I would do things being generous, right, right? And actually, what I wanted was something for myself, but I couldn't ask for it, right? Because that was way too risky. Yes, yeah. So I had to this sort of slightly shadowy kind of behavior of kind of like, yeah. It's almost sort of tacit manipulation, in a way, trying to kind of get something from the other Yeah. And I love the clarity of this, that sort of in that empowers both parties to have, yeah, really, really kind of conscious consent, yeah, yeah.

Nicola Foster:

And the piece that I've, you know, you used the word Betty, and it's so, it's, it's so at the heart, I think, of this of vulnerability, the vulnerability of asking. I mean, I think when we came back from that first workshop, I was trying to practice more, and it's something I'm still, you know, years later, you know, just to say, because I've, you know, like lots of us, have got very slidy Gray, you know, do you fancy putting the kettle on? I say that all the time. Do you fancy putting the kettle on? Do you want, do you want to put the kettle on? For what I mean is, will you, would you make me? Yeah, say, would you make me a cup and I try and do it now. And even just that simple, yeah, such a small thing. But just to say, will you make me a cup of tea? Long term relationships as well. There's something about what if he said, No, you know, cup of tea? And he says, Oh, I've actually just got to go and do this other thing. It's you know, he's not there to do what I want him to do. It touches raw places. So don't ask. You know, don't ask, in case the answer's no, yeah, and it's Yeah. I just think it's, it's so it's so vulnerable, isn't it? Yeah,

Unknown:

yeah, it is. It's, it is vulnerable. And I don't think it's vulnerable because you're broken. I think it's inherently vulnerable. It's the nature of it. Because when you reveal what it is that you want, you know, of course, you can be laughed at and shamed and all that stuff. But you're also now, you're showing this part of yourself that you weren't showing before. And anytime we show a part of ourselves that's inherently vulnerable, because people can poke at it or make fun of it or whatever. And so, yeah, I think it's, it's inherently vulnerable to ask for what we want. And most of us are just out of practice, you know. And we, you know, when you were two years old and you wanted this and you wanted that, did your parents say, Oh, you do? You know that's not going to work, but you do such a good job of asking. Like, did anybody ever hear that I don't know, not that I know of you know. And so we get, we get shamed and all kinds of stuff, just for asking or just for wanting, or it doesn't work. Or, you know, somebody said, if I, if I reveal what I want, it can be used against me. That's true. It can, you know. So I think our difficulty in asking for what we want is way deeper. I mean, it's not it's it's not really current so much. It's just way deeper, judging by how hard it is for me, and the places where I still get stuck and don't ask, and the different stories and feelings that have come up as we've done various kinds of exercises around that. It's, it's heartbreaking, yeah, yeah, and it changes your life, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's

Nicola Foster:

that exercise isn't there in, in the wheel, you know, wheel workshops, why? Why don't we ask for what we want? Yes, yeah, get the flip chart up and, oh my goodness, it's fast. You know that flip chart fills up in so fast. Just ask people, you know, why? All the reasons why you don't ask me, one, yeah, is, you know, in within two or three minutes, you've got 20 reasons.

Unknown:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and then, and then we're left with the hinting and the manipulation, because that's all we have. Yeah. So yeah, just no wonder,

Nicola Foster:

an aspect of the wheel that we haven't talked about yet, that I think we've, I've become fascinated by, and we've worked with a bit in workshops, is the whole idea of domain. Kind of fascinated by domain, because I think it really opened doors for us in our relationship when we realized, because we done a lot of like yourself, we'd started at intimacy workshops, we've done exercises, and we kind of talked about boundaries, and been able to say no, and that was all okay. But then there's this, I mean, let me maybe give, I'll give an example of, like, if I'm working with a couple, and then maybe doing those sorts of workshops, and they might say, oh, yeah, yeah, we've, we've talked about our boundaries. And, like, you know, he's not gonna there's not gonna be any kissing or something or and it's like this kind of blurry thing where one person's sort of making decisions about the other person. And I loved it. Loved it in the wheel of, like, really coming into this idea of domain, like, my body. You know, each of us has got a body and opinions and views and ideas and money and all the things that are in our domain, and it's and we have the kind of this, we have rights over what we do with our body, but I loved the idea also that within that we have responsibilities. Yeah? So I'd love to hear you. Just tell us. Tell us. Tell the listeners about domain, domain.

Unknown:

Well, the the the problem with the word boundary is that it gets used for lots of different things. You might say, for example, you know the boundaries, no kissing or whatever. You know while you're at the workshop, you might use the word boundary to mean this is something that I don't want to do, it's okay. Or you might use the word boundary to mean this is something that you can't do. Or it might, you might use the word boundary to mean, this belongs to me, that belongs to you. It's just, if you're having an argument with someone about boundaries, it's probably because you're using the word. You're using two different definitions of the same word, because there's so many ways to use it that it sort of become meaningless. And I was visiting a friend of mine who had a wolf sanctuary, and she had several different family groupings of wolves, and they were in chain link closures, and so they could see each other, and they could smell each other, but it was not a problem, because there was a fence, and as we were talking about it with her, I realized, oh, they they each have this area of dirt that belongs to them, and they feel responsible for it, and they feel They have a right to it, and they're perfectly happy having neighbors, but if you took out the fences so that, that they, they it would be holy hell, you know. So it made me think about the point is not the fence. The point is, what is in this area of dirt that's inside the fence? What are you responsible for always, and what do you have a right to always? And they're the same things your body. Of course, you have a right to your body. You also have a responsibility to take care of your body that no one can do that for you. We help each other. Of course, thank goodness. You have a right to have whatever feelings you have, and you have a responsibility to own those feelings. Again, we influence each other. Of course, we do. That's that's great, but I can't reach over and tell you, Oh, you should feel this way. I want you to feel this way instead of this other way. Well, fuck you. Like are you kidding me? This is in, this is in my domain. I am I have a right to feel what I feel. I have a right to another responsibility to feel what I feel. It doesn't mean that I'm always right. I could be totally messed up in what my feelings are about and all that stuff. But they're mine, and you don't get to tell me what I should feel or what I shouldn't feel. Hopefully you can just be patient with me until I figure it out, because feelings change. Thank goodness. So your feelings, your thoughts, your desires, your fears, what turns you on is what turns me on is my responsibility. It's not your responsibility to figure it out for me, it's my responsibility. And as you what I noticed is that as you, as you get more clear about taking responsibility for what's as I get more clear about taking responsibility for what's in my domain, I kind of automatically become more respectful of what's in your domain? Yeah, yeah. I stopped trying to change you. Yeah. You know, one thing that is not in your domain is your actions, because you don't have a right to do whatever you feel like doing, because it affects other people, but you certainly have a right to feel like it. You don't have the right necessarily to do it. Yeah,

Jason Porthouse:

yeah. That was something that really landed for me about this concept, was that, to use your analogy of the sort of the being closure, I think I somebody, and I've said this before on this podcast a number of times, but basically lived my life as a bit of a people pleaser, and so my my kind of reference was always with the other and in that space, it never occurred to me that I had to domain, yeah, because I'm always looking At the other wolves and what they're looking you know. And this patch of grass, the patch of land, whatever it is, you know, that's fenced in around me is kind of like non existent to me, in a way. And so I found on my journey, a lot of it has been that sort of sense of, oh, okay, yeah, I have got this. That's mine and it's okay, yeah, yeah, and it's mine, regardless of what other people do, yeah,

Unknown:

yeah, yeah,

Jason Porthouse:

yeah. So I found that really powerful. Actually, there's just the notion of, it is, it's, again, it's those things that I never really thought about. This manages to kind of put, put into a tangible, yeah, and

Nicola Foster:

it's like you said, Betty about the you know, each of us having a responsibility to figure out what turns us on. And I think so many in the sexual realm, it's often all sort of put over there. Oh, yeah, you you figure out what I might like, you try a few things, and let's see what works. And there's very little kind of coming back to here and saying, and I think, well, actually, for both genders, but in different ways, there's a, you know, you know, to be able to for me to ask for something I want sexually, yeah, you have to kind of get past this, this kind of cultural piece where that, you know, good girls, nice, that's right, that's right, yeah. But I think it's also true for both genders. Well, also yeah, there's

Jason Porthouse:

that notion that you know, if you're a, if you're a good lover, you will just know. That's right,

Unknown:

if you really love me, you would know, yeah, yeah. I spent about my first 4050, years that way, yeah, yeah, yeah, and yeah. I think that's that's true in every gender. We have different ways that we're raised, and it's just a mess. Really, it's just a mess. Yeah,

Nicola Foster:

yeah. I'm always being reminded of, like, how important it is to keep bringing this, this these questions and these practices in because all of us are kind of starting from such a low bar.

Unknown:

Yeah, I think that's true.

Jason Porthouse:

Well, it is stuff we're really taught, isn't it, you know, in terms of kind of power education,

Unknown:

yeah, yeah, nobody really teaches you to to honor your own limits and say no, yeah. Like, is anybody ever praised as a kid for saying, No, probably not, yeah. I

Nicola Foster:

mean, quite the opposite, isn't it? It's like, it's actually kind of disencouraged. Is that the right way? Is that a word, you know, not encouraged? I mean, we use an example. Sometimes we're teaching, like, you know, if your parents trying to get your coat on when you're coming out the door and you're. Like, you know, no, you don't want to wear your coat. You're just gonna get that's not gonna go well, you'll just, you'll be overridden. And we all have many, many experiences of that happening to us, so we just kind of, we learn how to acquiesce, to go along with because it's what happens

Unknown:

over and over and over again. Yeah, what it's what keeps you alive and safe as a small person? Yeah, I want to say one more thing about domain, you know, I I say that we all have a right to our body and we have a right to our feelings and so forth. And you could look around you and say, Well, I don't have a right to my body because of my culture, my family, my situation and or that someone can take away that right, and someone can certainly overstep that you can get assaulted, you can get mugged, you can get raped, you can get shot. You know, shit happens, and I it's kind of depends on how you're using the word, right, if you're using it to mean that it's never transgressed, well, that's not going to happen, but I think of it as a right we have. And yes, sometimes it gets transgressed, and I think it's important to recognize that even when it does get transgressed, it's still a right that we have. It's just not being honored the time. Yeah,

Jason Porthouse:

it's that's a good segue, actually, to something that I was curious around, which is that I think as as the notion of consent has become more and more prevalent in our society, and people are getting it, or at least a notion of it, more and more. I'm kind of noticing as well that along with that comes a sort of a polarization that can often happen, you know, where people are kind of butting heads, rather than being able to really understand differing positions and nuance around this.

Unknown:

What? What would be? What? What are the heads butting about consent?

Jason Porthouse:

Well, maybe just trying to think of examples, really, but, but I

Nicola Foster:

think there can often be conflicting needs that can't be met, you know, that's very hard to balance, and a sort of entitlement or a righteousness about what my needs, you know, I I've just, I've just, I've discovered my limit, and I've discovered my need, and it's this and and then there's two people, and they're both sort of entrenched in their position of groups also, you know, I think that I do notice sometimes that there can be, it can bring in additional conflict, and then there's a whole another level of skills right to try and work with that? Yeah, I'd

Unknown:

say it probably the conflict is already there because, of course, we have conflict because we're people, and the if you can bring your conflict into the open so that you can say, Oh, this is what I'm interested in. What are you interested in? What do you need? What do you need? And then you work it out. I also see some some confusion about what consent means. And so after I had been teaching this for 15 years, I thought I should look this up in the dictionary. So I did. I was kind of surprised, because it turns out that consent means basically agreeing to what somebody else wants you get consent, or you give consent, if you it's getting a yes, basically consent. If you get consent, it means somebody said yes. Well, in order to say yes, someone else has to ask for what they want. Where does that fit into the picture? It's really, not really in the definition all. And so I realized that, and that creates a kind of a gatekeeper model of consent, which is, you have the thing I want, the thing I'm going to try to get you to say. Yes, I want the thing. And of course, that happens with sex. A lot. You have the sex, typically it's the woman you have the sex. That's the man. I want the sex. I have to get you to say yes, so that I can get the sex from you. It's a fucked up model, but it it shows that we're using consent, that that the way we're using consent is like, Okay, you open the gate, close the gate, I say yes, or I say no. And technically, that's what consent is, but it's not what anybody really wants in their personal lives. What we want, I think, is to to have some agreement that we arrive at together. And that's how I that's how I use, I think really, it should be called the wheel of agreement instead of the wheel of consent, but it's too late to change it.

Nicola Foster:

Say that I've heard you say that before, and that's when I introduce it. I say, I want to tell you about this thing called the wheel of consent, but Betty says some people maybe really will have agreements, because, yeah, and that's the that is the practice is getting to an agreement, and being able to take the little risks and vulnerability to get the agreement. Yeah, yeah.

Unknown:

It might be, oh, What? What? What is it that we want to play with here in the next few hours, or whatever we have and and and what do we not want to play with? What, what things are off the table? Well, that frees you up, because now you have all these other things that you are free to play with. Or it may be, I'm interested in this experience. Is that something that you want to play with, too? Yeah, so it's, it's when people start using the word consent. It's a problematic word because it, if it means just getting it, yes, well, that's useful, but man, that leaves a lot out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Porthouse:

The image that comes to mind when you're talking about that is, like, you know, if, if two people have their domains, and they're like, Dodgems, you know, they're like, in their own little bumper cars, and they're just constantly batting off one another, yeah? And actually, when we often talk about is, is the space between, that, that creation of the relationship between two people, whether it's a long term relationship, whether it's a momentary interaction, yeah, yeah, that's where agreement, yeah can happen and consent comes in, yeah, yeah, you know. And if we don't have a model of that. If all we're doing is being in our bumper cars and sort of butting heads with one another, we're not really going to get very far right,

Unknown:

right?

Nicola Foster:

Yeah, I'm just reminded we, we did a workshop earlier this year, and we did a little experiment, sort of to do with domain and agreements, where we asked people to write down on their own, individually, in their own little bubble, they were paired up with somebody, and so they knew who they would be with, and that was all clear. And there was an agreement to be with this person. And then they had to write individually what they might want in this interaction on paper, rather than just think it Oh. Then there was this kind of revealing, yeah, and it couldn't be changed and adjusted to Yeah, because I love it. Yeah. It was so interesting. And what happened in the space was fascinating, because it was so creative, yeah, because from that place of not just going well, you know, maybe you'll stroke me a bit or give me a shoulder rub, there were beautiful conversations happening or dances or beholding because people

Unknown:

Yeah, it was Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was fun, yeah, yeah, you touching in with your own desires without editing them based on what the other person just said, yeah, yeah,

Jason Porthouse:

trying to second guess what, what might fly in this situation, yeah. What can I get away with here? Yeah,

Unknown:

yeah.

Jason Porthouse:

How much can I ask, yeah,

Nicola Foster:

yeah, yeah. And, I mean, we were working with a group of people who were very experienced, because, of course, there's a such a risk. You know of you were talking about taboo before we came online, but the taboo of maybe asking for something that wouldn't be quite wild, and maybe the other person may, may, may say no, but you've been like you said, you're sort of exposed then, yeah, but what I mean in one of the little pairings. Both people both written down some wild stuff. They had this wild time because it was so clear. Yeah, you know, this was interesting, interesting. Oh, I'm just, I've just noticed the clock. I'm aware that we must be respectful of a boundary.

Jason Porthouse:

We're right for a little bit more time. I mean, one of the things that I was sorry the book, yeah, this book, yeah, this wonderful book, this wonderful book, yeah, which is a constant source of inspiration. One of the things I really, really liked in here was, and I'd love to hear you speak a little bit more about this, was the people that stick on taking. So, the when in, the when, you know, so, yeah, this, this taboo around taking. Basically, oh,

Unknown:

yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the taking Quadrant for the listeners is the one where I am doing to you what I want to do to you. I'm in taking and with your permission, of course, and within the whatever limits you have said, and I'm respecting those limits, but I'm touching you for my own enjoyment and my own benefit, and that is hard for almost everybody, because one is, I think we're taught that the way to touch someone, it's always got to be about them. If I'm going to touch you, it's got to always be about you, and so, but we're primates, we just like to get our hands on each other. We just do and so, how do you, you know? How do you square that? So the take quadrant is the one where, if I'm in taking I'm doing to you what I want. And like I said, it's hard for almost everybody. And it turned in and I thought, Oh, well, you know, just little confusing, because, you know, maybe we not used to it. But what I found was, for enough people it was seriously intimidating and sometimes difficult even to find the experience with your hands, like they just couldn't find it. And that told me that there's something deeper at play here. And I think it, it has to do with sensuality, sensuality of the hands, for one thing, because, in the practice, is mostly touching with the hands that if I if my hands are not comfortable or able to take in sensation and experience it as pleasure with just anything like, you know, feeling a rock or a pin or a you know, like, can I feel the pleasure in this thing on my hand? If I can't feel pleasure in my hand at all. I'm not going to feel pleasure in my hand when I'm touching you, because that just like those nerves aren't talking to each other. So there's a practice in there of waking up the hands, and then maybe I'm comfortable with feeling some object, and I cut, okay. Now my hands, Oh, yeah. Now my hands feel good. Now I'm going to touch you. Suddenly I can't do it because it's just not done. Or that there's, there's that we have a such a fear and a taboo on taking action for our own enjoyment that it's very deep for many, many people, and it's just hard. It has to be, has to be opened up a little bit at a time, little bit of time, a little bit at a time. Yeah, but, but the taking quadrant is hardest, is the hardest one. For almost everybody. Out of 1000 people that I taught, the number for whom it was easy and obvious was six. Wow. For everybody else, it took at least, it took some fiddling around, and at most, it took weeks. Yeah, so yeah, there's something going on in there. Yeah, yeah. I

Nicola Foster:

think that's why it's so great to hear you on the podcast and talking about it, because I think people maybe pick up the the. They see the practices online, or they hear about them, and they think that they should be able to do them all this kind of stuff is easy, and that there's something wrong with them because they because they're struggling with it, yeah? And it's so fascinating,

Jason Porthouse:

yeah, and you're kind of unwinding something that's been, a lifetime of conditioning. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, on the personal level and also on a societal level as well. Absolutely,

Unknown:

absolutely,

Nicola Foster:

yeah, yeah. And then when it comes to take one thing, I'm, you know, I work a lot with couples where one partners still has in touch with desire. They want sex and they want touch, and another person's kind of just lost touch with that for whatever reasons, many different over many decades, maybe lost touch with anyone kind of wanting. And so when take comes, when we really go into it, they just don't want anything that just feels like work. And I suppose I just want to name that, you know, if you've played, if you're listening to this, and you've played with the wheel, and that's your experience, I can relate to it personally, too. I remember, I think I shared about it when I did the workshop, and I think you spoke about sometimes it's just an indicator to ourselves that we're exhausted, that we haven't got much energy to want to take, and that may there's this clue for us there and we need in terms of rest or space. Yeah, yeah.

Unknown:

I think to a lot of people, their only experience of touch, either touching or being touched, is that it's all for the benefit of the other person. Like that's just the nature of touch, is that stuff happens and I have to be okay with it, somehow. That's just what touch is. And so discovering that it's possible to be touched the way you want, like, how's that even possible? Because they've never experienced it that way, and that is a really, really important thing to turn around, and and, and often very hard to turn around. Well, it's not it's as simple, but it's not always easy. It's simple. Go back and play the three minute game. And when someone asks you how you want to be touched, take it seriously. Like, oh, oh, how do I want to be touched? I have no idea. It's okay. We got all the time in the world. You can, we can sit here for an hour like there'll be, there'll be something that you want, even if it's not touched, there'll be something that you want. And and I think many people sexually get so accustomed to doing what they think they're supposed to want, but they completely lose track of what they actually want. And that learning to tune back into what you actually want is huge life changer. Yeah, and it has to be done in bite sized pieces, I think, yeah,

Jason Porthouse:

yeah, yeah. I think the first time we ever did the three minute game, and I was asked that question, I was thinking to myself, What should I say here? Yes, yeah, yeah. What's acceptable to for me to say? What sort of Yeah, rather than and yeah, the notion that actually, I could actually tune into what it was I wanted, and that might be nothing, or I might, you know, yeah, yeah, really, really, sort of profound and powerful. And I love what you said earlier on about, you know, in the three minute game, you're separating those things out. Because I think so often when people are are in interaction with one another. Yeah, you can't really receive something if you're thinking next step or what you've got to do. It's like, weird, sort of, it suddenly occurred to me when we started to sort of play with that and separate them out. It's like, I can't really be present for either of them, because there's part of my brain that's thinking about and what I doing to you is, is that pleasurable for you, isn't it? Is it wanted? Is it not? So I'm not open to be receiving at all, yeah, yeah. And vice versa. So it's kind of,

Unknown:

and you're sure sick not talking about it. Yes, that's too weird, yeah.

Jason Porthouse:

Because obviously we don't do that. We just, we just need to know

Nicola Foster:

the cultural things of like, you know, we're British.

Unknown:

Yeah. Wow,

Jason Porthouse:

we could, we could be unpacking this and and talking about it for hours and hours and hours, because it is so deep. I

Nicola Foster:

make my parents laugh, because they kind of go, I think I've got it now. And I say, Yeah, I've done this. I've I've got, I've been to a workshop for five days twice, actually, where we where we just keep unpacking this.

Unknown:

It's quite cool here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nicola Foster:

And just scratching the surface, so yes, we could definitely go on, but we've, there's lots of gems and gold dust,

Jason Porthouse:

yeah. And we'll, obviously, you know, link to everything that you all focus on. You're incredibly generous with what you put on your website. Oh, yeah,

Unknown:

I want people to have it, yeah,

Nicola Foster:

yeah. You don't have to give your email address. It's just

Unknown:

there, just there, just go get it. And

Jason Porthouse:

it's an amazing it's an amazing resource for people, I think, when they get into it, and yeah, yeah,

Nicola Foster:

yeah. Massive contribution that you've that you've made Betty. So thank you for your contribution, and

Unknown:

you're so welcome today. Well, thanks for having me. It's been a joy to talk with you.

Jason Porthouse:

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe so you never miss an episode, and if you want to contact us with comments or suggestions for topics you'd like us to cover. There are links in the notes below.

Nicola Foster:

And if you're ready to take the next step to rediscovering the passion in your relationship, why not check out my online course called reigniting intimacy. It's packed full of information and practical exercises that you can do at home. I put everything together in a step by step program, and it's designed to take you Both into deeper connection. You can find out more@realreating.com you